Ben Shapiro questions Riley Gaines on competing against a transgender athlete amidst fear

In a new “Sunday Special” interview, Daily Wire Editor Emeritus Ben Shapiro spoke to Riley Gaines about her experience competing against a trans-identifying man and asked her about the current state of women’s sports.

Shapiro noted that Gaines has a new book out, “Swimming Against the Current: Fighting for Common Sense in a World That’s Lost its Mind,” which hit bookstore shelves on Tuesday. In her book, Gaines discusses her experience and addresses hot button questions about women and sports in America.

During their hour-long discussion, Gaines recalled what it felt like to swim against — and tie with — trans-identifying biological male Lia Thomas during the 2022 NCAA championship.

“How exactly did you go about dealing with that?” Shapiro asked Gaines.

Gaines explained that her school, the University of Kentucky, made it clear to the women’s swim team that, “we have already taken your stance for you,” she said.

“So there was a lot of fear, really. I mean, the threats and the intimidation that they had instilled at the time, that to me seemed real, which now I realize what a bunch of mumbo jumbo, all that stuff was. That was not based in reality at all,” she said.

“But nonetheless, upon getting to the meet those feelings of intriguement and curiosity and feeling like we were in this circus shifted immediately to feelings of heartbreak, really. I mean, I think that’s the best way to put it. I’ll never forget that first day,” Gaines said.

Gaines recounted how when she tied with Thomas in one race, an official told her that they only had one trophy and it had to go to Thomas.

“The NCAA official looks at both Thomas and myself, Thomas towering over me, and the official says, ‘Great job you two, but you tied and we only have one trophy. So we’re going to give the trophy to Lia. Sorry, Riley, you don’t get one,’” Gaines remembered.

When she asked why, the official told her they had been advised that it was crucial Thomas was holding the trophy when photos were taken.

“That’s what the unfair competition looked like,” Gaines said.

The trophy incident was the moment she decided she had to do something, Gaines said. Since then, the former University of Kentucky swimmer has been an outspoken advocate for girls’ sports.

“Since then I’ve only been reassured that the stand that I have taken unapologetically and firmly is in fact the right stand,” Gaines told Shapiro. “I never questioned this, but the vitriol that I face, the anger, the violence in many instances that I face for merely saying that there are two sexes and that you can’t change your sex and that each sex is deserving of equal opportunity, privacy and safety.”

Gaines also described how uncomfortable it was to have a “fully naked, fully intact man” changing in the locker room with them.

“It’s awkward. It’s embarrassing. It’s uncomfortable. I think the best words to describe the locker room atmosphere was I mean, it felt like betrayal. It was an utter violation, and it was traumatic,” she said.

Gaines also criticized President Biden’s administration for its “illegal administrative rewrite of Title IX,” the 1972 federal civil rights law prohibiting sex-based discrimination at schools receiving federal funding.

Last month, the Education Department unveiled new Title IX regulations to prohibit schools from enforcing blanket bans on trans-identifying males in girls’ sports set to take effect in August.

“It doesn’t make sense, but that’s their goal, is to blur the lines of objective truth, of biological reality,” Gaines said.

However, Gaines said she also sees reasons to be hopeful.

“I certainly believe that the tide is turning,” she said. “I mean, truth and sanity, they always prevail. It’s kind of just a matter of how long do we have to endure this, how many girls have to lose out, how many girls have to be injured, how many girls have to be exploited in locker rooms before people find it necessary and worthwhile and urgent, quite frankly, to take action.”

Shapiro asked the former college swimmer, “What is your message to female athletes who are rising right now and facing these challenges on a real time basis?”

“Well, first and foremost, I encourage every single person to play sports,” Gaines responded. “But my message to those young girls who are, who might face this or who fear facing this is to be bold, be brave, be courageous, don’t be scared to talk about it. I was. But when I finally got the courage to not really walk on eggshells anymore, to have the conversation with people around me, my teammates, what have you, I realized they all agreed with me.”