{"id":2194268,"date":"2024-03-06T16:00:02","date_gmt":"2024-03-06T21:00:02","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/andrew-klavan-on-finding-the-joy-of-my-joy-after-a-horrible-darkness\/"},"modified":"2024-03-06T16:01:21","modified_gmt":"2024-03-06T21:01:21","slug":"andrew-klavan-on-finding-the-joy-of-my-joy-after-a-horrible-darkness","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/andrew-klavan-on-finding-the-joy-of-my-joy-after-a-horrible-darkness\/","title":{"rendered":"Andrew Klavan discovered true happiness amidst overwhelming despair"},"content":{"rendered":"<aside class=\"mashsb-container mashsb-main mashsb-stretched\"><div class=\"mashsb-box\"><div class=\"mashsb-count mash-medium\" style=\"&quot;\"><div class=\"counts mashsbcount\">16<\/div><span class=\"mashsb-sharetext\">SHARES<\/span><\/div><div class=\"mashsb-buttons\"><a class=\"mashicon-facebook mash-medium mash-nomargin mashsb-noshadow\" href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.conservativenewsdaily.net%2Fbreaking-news%2Fandrew-klavan-on-finding-the-joy-of-my-joy-after-a-horrible-darkness%2F\" target=\"_top\" rel=\"nofollow\"><span class=\"icon\"><\/span><span class=\"text\">Facebook<\/span><\/a><a class=\"mashicon-twitter mash-medium mash-nomargin mashsb-noshadow\" href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/intent\/tweet?text=&amp;url=https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/?p=2194268&amp;via=ConservNewsDly\" target=\"_top\" rel=\"nofollow\"><span class=\"icon\"><\/span><span class=\"text\">Twitter<\/span><\/a><a class=\"mashicon-subscribe mash-medium mash-nomargin mashsb-noshadow\" href=\"#\" target=\"_top\" rel=\"nofollow\"><span class=\"icon\"><\/span><span class=\"text\">Subscribe<\/span><\/a><div class=\"onoffswitch2 mash-medium mashsb-noshadow\" style=\"display:none\"><\/div><\/div>\n            <\/div>\n                <div style=\"clear:both\"><\/div><\/aside>\n            <!-- Share buttons by mashshare.net - Version: 4.0.47--><h2>The Joyful Journey of Knowing God: A Conversation with Dr. Jordan Peterson<\/h2>\n<p><i>The following is a transcript excerpt from \u2062Dr. Jordan Peterson\u2019s conversation with <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dailywire.com\/show\/the-andrew-klavan-show\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Andrew\u200c Klavan<\/a> on\u2063 how coming to know God over time develops an experiential relationship\u2062 and why the journey toward the self you were made to be is a joyful journey. You can \u2062 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dailywire.com\/podcasts\/the-jordan-b-peterson-podcast\/tbd-klavan\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">listen to<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dailywire.com\/episode\/tbd-klavan\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">watch<\/a> the full podcast episode on DailyWire+.<\/i><\/p>\n<h3>Start time: 1:28:08<\/h3>\n<p><b>Andrew Klavan:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is one of the problems I\u2019ve always had with the postmodernists: They talk about the meaninglessness of language, but I \u2063understand what they\u2019re saying. And so obviously \u2014 except with \u200bDerrida, who had the integrity to write absolute gibberish \u2014 \u200cthey actually are disproving their\u200d own point. \u2062And they \u200dtalk about, basically, the \u2063fact that we can\u2019t know anything, but \u200dwe can. We can know if I go north, I get to\u200b Canada; if I go south, I get to Mexico.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Jordan B. Peterson:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. We cannot know anything purely by words.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Andrew Klavan:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, that\u2019s right. And\u2064 so I really\u200b did have some kind of trust in myself. I simply could not break through my milieu, which was so default \u200dat least agnostic and \u2063really atheistic. The other thing about this, too, by\u200d the way, is\u200c being a bit of a tough guy, I thought that, in \u200bmy misery when I cracked up, to embrace God, even though it \u200dwas logical, was a crutch. How would \u2064I know whether I had\u2064 embraced him in reality\u200b or just because \u2062I wanted to get \u200bout of this incredible pain I was in? And so I couldn\u2019t do\u2062 it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">When, years later, I was now \u200da very happy person, my career\u200d took off, everything started\u200c to go \u200cright, I still had\u2062 that \u2062logic and something else was true as well, which was \u2064that I had \u200cbeen\u200b a\u2063 real Freudian. I had \u200cgrown up in that real core Freudian world where all the art stank because everybody\u2019s\u2062 trying to \u2063prove \u200byour mother was to blame for everything and all that.\u200d And I didn\u2019t come to feel that what Freud said was utter nonsense;\u200b I came \u2064to \u200cfeel\u200c that the details of what he said were utter nonsense, that the structure\u200b of \u2064the\u2064 relationship between a therapist or a mentor and a client or a son \u2062or a friend or\u2062 whatever, I thought he got a lot of that quite right \u2014\u2062 the idea of transference and all this \u2014 which made\u200b me feel that \u2062all of the insights I had had in therapy that I thought were salvific\u200d had not \u200bbeen. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had been salvific\u2063 was the loving relationship I\u200b had had with this older man\u2063 who had taken the place of a father who had not been very helpful and it \u2064was actually the love that\u200c had saved\u200d me, \u2062and I began to believe in\u2064 psychology.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Jordan B. Peterson:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that is that\u2062 relationship again.<\/span><\/p>\n<h4><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dailywire.com\/episode\/tbd-klavan\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">WATCH: \u200dThe Jordan B.\u200c Peterson Podcast on DailyWire+<\/a><\/strong><\/h4>\n<p><b>Andrew Klavan:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u2063And \u200cit\u200b made me feel that psychology is a story, that stories give us the\u2064 ability to take\u2062 the ineffable and move\u2064 it around a\u200d little bit. And so you split up things that are actually unified into pieces that you can move. And\u200b that brought me back to \u2063God.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">And ultimately, it comes back to fiction again and how much \u200dI\u2063 love \u200cfiction. I was reading. I\u200c don\u2019t \u200cknow\u2062 if you\u2019ve ever read the Patrick\u200d O\u2019Brien novels?\u2062 They\u2019re just wonderful seafaring adventure stories about the Napoleonic wars.\u200c They\u2019re absolutely brilliant.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Jordan B. Peterson:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, no. I do not know of\u2062 them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Andrew\u2063 Klavan:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">In them, there\u2019s a very intellectual character named Maturin who\u2019s an ugly little man but very brilliant and kind \u2064of a spy. I kind of\u2062 admired him and identified with\u2062 him a little bit. He\u2019s \u200da Catholic, and there\u2019s a scene where he \u200bwas falling asleep, and the line \u200dis:\u200c He said a prayer and went to sleep. And \u2064I was reading in\u2064 bed and I thought, well, if Maturin can say a prayer before he goes to sleep, so \u200dcan \u2064I.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">And\u2064 I just thanked God for the journey I \u200bhad come out of \u2014 this horrible darkness that I thought was the \u2064end.\u200d I\u2063 thought I was going to kill myself. Instead, I\u200c had come out, and here I was now. I had two children. \u200bMy career was great. I was so happy to \u200bbe with my beloved wife. I \u200dwas living in a wonderful place. And I thanked \u2062God, and\u200c it changed my life.\u200b I woke up the next morning, and everything was brighter.\u200c Everything was clearer \u2014 the details of life. I christened it<\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">  \u200bthe joy of my joy<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Jordan B. Peterson:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is the definition of gratitude.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Andrew Klavan:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Jordan \u200dB.\u2064 Peterson:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you pointed to three things there \u200dthat \u200bwe should \u2063take apart. Maybe we can close with this.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">The first \u2064is, one of the primary Freudian accusations \u200d\u2014 \u2063and \u200cMarx did this too \u2014 was that religion was just a \u2064shield against death-anxiety or a sop for \u2063the victimized poor. That would be Marx. But Freud was a little bit more trenchant, saying it is a shield of meaning the weak \u2062use to protect themselves against the ultimate \u200creality of pointless death. \u200cPeople like Ernest Becker made much of that in his \u201cDenial of Death,\u201d which \u2064is actually really a great book,\u200d even though it is fundamentally wrong. It is a great book.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there is something really unwise about that perspective. \u2064So here are three\u200c arguments against\u200b that from someone who really \u2064admires \u200dFreud, by the way. First of all, if that was \u2063the case, why \u200cbother with hell? Because medieval \u200dpeople \u2063were as scared as \u200dhell <em>of<\/em> hell as modern people are of death. The evidence\u200b for that is clear. And you\u200b might \u200bsay, \u201cWell, hell was just a convenient place to put\u200b your enemies.\u201d But that is not a good analysis. So, if it is \u2062just a death-anxiety shield, then \u200bwhy decorate it \u200dwith this \u2064terrible moral obligation \u200dand \u200dthe\u2064 reality\u200c of hell? So that is \u200ba big \u200dproblem for that theory.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you have two other problems, which is that you are supposed to hoist your cross as\u2063 a Christian\u2062 believer, and there literally is not anything\u2062 worse than that by definition because \u2064it means you have to \u200cstand up to the mob, even if they \u2063are your brothers; that you have\u2064 to forsake your family in pursuit of ethical truths;\u200c that you have to suffer torment \u2014 physical and metaphysical; and that you have to face the reality of hell itself.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, sorry, that is not a \u2062defense against death-anxiety, not least because I think you can make a\u200d very powerful case that\u200c confronting malevolence \u200dis worse than confronting death.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Andrew Klavan:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Jordan B. Peterson:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">We <i>know<\/i> this because people are rarely traumatized by a brush with death, and they are routinely traumatized by \u200ba brush with malevolence. So even on those\u200c grounds, you can see that the \u200breality of evil is more trenchant and\u200d salient than the reality of death. So that Freudian argument? It is just\u200d not right. He\u200d got that wrong.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Andrew\u200c Klavan:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">This \u200bis\u200b where Freud \u2062indulges in quackery a little bit. He\u2019s interviewing,\u2063 you know, 20 \u200dhysterical \u200bVictorian Viennese, and he decides\u200c that God is \u2064a projection of\u200b the father. And he says \u200dit very definitively, and you think: Hey, you\u2019re welcome \u2062to your opinion. But\u2062 really, what you\u2019re talking about to\u200d me is like \u200csaying that you believe in bread to forestall the fear of hunger.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, C.S. Lewis points out\u2063 that we don\u2019t have \u2062any desires that don\u2019t have an answer. All our desires have an answer, in fact, in the world; everything that we hunger for is actually there. And this is one of my problems with\u200b the evolutionary biologists who think \u2063that they can trace the creation of morality. My point about \u2062that is it\u2019s like saying that because I \u200bhave eyes, that I\u2019ve invented light, you know. I\u2019ve invented the human\u200d experience of light, perhaps, but not light itself.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it\u2019s the same thing with\u2063 the moral sense that we have. You can say it\u2019s a \u200cresult of evolution. \u200bThat\u2019s fine. But it\u2019s a result \u200cof evolution like the eye in relationship to something that exists, which is the\u2063 moral order. And I think that\u2062 these arguments really \u200bdo fall \u2062apart once you begin to have a realistic view of God and not the\u200d sort of \u2064happy, you know, yellow face with a smile on it. I have to \u2063tell you that weeks after \u2063my \u200cbaptism, my wife, who now knows me to my footsoles turned to me and\u200b said, you are such a different person; you are just filled with joy and relaxation. Knowing God has been joy on joy for me. I have to tell you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">This \u2064is one of the least quoted lines in the Gospel, \u200dbut Jesus said, I\u2019m telling you things so that my joy will be in you and your joy will be complete. \u200dSomehow religion manages to\u2063 turn this into this tormented struggle with your sexual desires \u2062or whatever. But no, I actually do think this journey toward the self that you\u2064 were made to be is a very joyful journey. \u2062And every time you take a step\u200c on it. And \u200cby \u201cjoy,\u201d \u2062I don\u2019t mean happiness. I \u200bdon\u2019t mean, again, that\u2064 smiley face. I \u2063mean a vitality of life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u2063only evidence \u200dfor love is over time. Experience over time is the evidence for love. I think that\u2019s true of God, too,\u2064 ultimately. There\u2019s no proof of God. There\u2019s only experience\u200b over time as you get to know him, and it develops in your life \u2014 and I highly recommend that. \u2064That\u2019s all I can say.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>* * *<\/p>\n<p><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">To continue, listen\u2062 or watch \u200bmore content with Dr. Jordan Peterson on \u200c <\/span><\/i><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dailywire.com\/watch\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">DailyWire+<\/span><\/i><\/a><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">. <\/span><\/i><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.jordanbpeterson.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Jordan B. Peterson<\/span><\/i><\/a><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">  is a clinical psychologist and professor emeritus\u2062 at the University of Toronto. From 1993 \u200cto 1998 he served \u200cas assistant and then associate professor of psychology at Harvard. He is the\u200c international bestselling author \u200dof Maps of Meaning,\u200c 12\u200b Rules For Life, \u200dand Beyond Order. <\/span><\/i><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">You \u2064can \u200bnow <\/span><\/i><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dailywire.com\/podcasts\/the-jordan-b-peterson-podcast\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">listen to<\/span><\/i><\/a><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">  \u2063or \u2062 <\/span><\/i><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dailywire.com\/watch\/jordan-peterson\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">watch<\/span><\/i><\/a><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">  his popular \u200dlectures on DailyWire+.<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n<p><em>Andrew Klavan is\u200c the host \u200bof\u200d \u201cThe Andrew Klavan Show\u201d at The Daily Wire. He \u200bis the bestselling author of the\u2063 Cameron\u200c Winter Mystery series. The third installment, \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/House-Death-Cameron-Winter-Mysteries-ebook\/dp\/B0BW1ZTVP9?ref_=ast_author_dp\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">The House\u200b of Love and Death<\/a>,\u201d is now available. Follow \u200bhim on X: @andrewklavan<\/em><\/p>\n<p> <\/p>\n<h2> \u200c How \u2063does coming to\u200d know God lead\u200d to a joyful and transformative \u2063journey towards self-discovery?<\/h2>\n<p><span>  \u200d Penness, attentiveness, and thoughtfulness,\u2064 and Jesus was the \u2063most open,\u200b attentive, and thoughtful person you can\u2063 imagine. And when you encounter that and implement it in\u200d your \u2064own life, it\u2019s an unbelievable joy to live that \u200cway. And you \u2063know that. You\u2019re happier with yourself. You\u2019re \u2062happier with your relationships. You\u2019re more at peace with who you are. And so, to answer your question, \u2064it\u2019s the ongoing process\u2064 of coming to know God that develops this experiential relationship, this joyful journey toward the self you were meant \u200cto be.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Jordan \u200bB. \u2064Peterson:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">That\u2019s a great place to end.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Andrew Klavan:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Great\u2062 conversation as always. Thank you so much.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Jordan B. Peterson:<\/b> <span style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, \u2063Andrew. It was a pleasure.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400\">(This \u2064article has been edited for clarity and brevity.)<\/span><\/p>\n<h3>Conclusion<\/h3>\n<p>In this conversation with Dr. Jordan \u200cPeterson,\u2062 Andrew Klavan\u2062 explores the journey of coming to know God and the resulting experiential relationship. They \u2062discuss the \u200dfallacy of postmodernist claims about the meaninglessness of language and \u200cthe capacity for \u200bhumans to know things.\u2062 Andrew, who was once agnostic and atheistic,\u200d shares his personal\u200c struggle\u2063 in embracing God and questions whether it was \u2063a genuine\u2063 belief or \u2062a mere crutch to escape pain. However, as his life\u2063 began to flourish and \u2062he experienced true\u200c happiness, he realized that it \u2063was the loving relationships he had developed, including his relationship with an older mentor, that brought him salvation, not merely psychological\u200d insights. Andrew&#8217;s journey \u200deventually led him back to God through fiction and gratitude, as he thanked God for \u2064the journey he \u2062had come out of and discovered the joy in \u2064his life. The conversation touches on the misconceptions surrounding religion and the\u2063 Freudian arguments against it, highlighting the transformative power \u200bof encountering malevolence and\u2064 the reality of evil. \u200bFinally, they conclude\u2064 that the journey of knowing God \u200cis \u2064a joyful one, filled with vitality, self-discovery, and a deeper understanding \u200bof oneself.<\/p>\n<p><b>Disclaimer:<\/b> The transcript excerpt in this article is taken from Dr. Jordan Peterson&#8217;s conversation \u2064with Andrew Klavan and has been edited\u200d for clarity \u200band brevity.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dr. Jordan Peterson and Andrew Klavan discuss how knowing God gradually builds a personal connection, leading to self-discovery. This transformative journey is filled with joy. To hear the complete podcast, visit DailyWire+<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1006,"featured_media":2194269,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_mo_disable_npp":"","fifu_image_url":"https:\/\/dw-wp-production.imgix.net\/2024\/03\/MixCollage-06-Mar-2024-12-42-PM-8195-scaled.jpg","fifu_image_alt":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[541],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2194268","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-the-daily-wire"],"fifu_image_url":"https:\/\/dw-wp-production.imgix.net\/2024\/03\/MixCollage-06-Mar-2024-12-42-PM-8195-scaled.jpg","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2194268","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1006"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2194268"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2194268\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/2194269"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2194268"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2194268"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.conservativenewsdaily.net\/breaking-news\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2194268"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}